Balneus

Australian Lefty on Politics, Governance, Science and Info Management

Remind me, please…

Posted by Dave Bath on 2009-01-27


To my fellow humanitarians, whether of lefty or liberal disposition: If I don’t publish a new post in response to this and this (and it may not be long before “Western Heart” chimes in), from authors who obviously detested my two posts on Australia Day (here and here), please remind me in a week or two.

Feel free to add your own comments about those Balneus-haters’ positions.  ("Balneus-haters" is perhaps the kindest way I can describe them, although at least “OzConservative” was civil.)  They certainly, particularly "silver", make me angry, but I think such comments actually lend some weight to my assertions that Australia can do a lot better.

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4 Responses to “Remind me, please…”

  1. silver said

    On the downfall of Greece and Rome, I’d suggest there were a few more contributing factors than immigration.

    Okay, what were they? Why simply assume they were there (or were significant) when you can see right before your very eyes the sort of catastrophic cultural decline that accompanies mass movements of alien people into a territory whose ways they know very little of and care very little for? In one hundred years, when Australia is wrecked beyond any chance of recovery (if trends persist), there will be no reason for any honest historian of the day to attribute the downfall to anything other than the change in the composition of the people living on this territory.

    Mad rushes for global dominance which exceed the would-be dominator’s ability to enforce control for example.

    That was simply the causative factor in the cited example. The same result would have occurred by the mass movement of the same people had there never been a Hellenistic conquest (though that movement would likely have faced stiffer resistance in this case).

    Rupert Murdoch may be many things, but a civilisation he ain’t. Not even a small country town.

    Neither was Alexander. The Rupert Murdochs was a synecdoche for the ruling class of globalist capitalists. If you’re on “democratic left” blog I assume you know very well what I’m referring to (whether you agree or not).

    There is plenty of evidence of integration (although integration has loaded meaning these days). Mixed race/culture marriages, businesses, neighbourhoods.

    Mixed marriages are only a sign of integration if the culture they reinforce is something distinctly Australian. An aussie girl marrying into a muslim family and taking its side against the Australian people can hardly be considered an example of “integration.”

    I think everyone accepts that immigrants work and run businesses and live in neighbourhoods. It’s setting the bar pretty low to consider that evidence of integration, isn’t it?

    Contrary to what pop sociology/politics says, officialdom can advocate whatever they want, people will run their everyday lives according to their own lights. You can’t enforce interracial marriage for example – people just do it.

    It’s a matter of what officialdom promotes, not what it can enforce. Officialdom promotes multiculturalism. So immigrants tend to be under the impression they can do no wrong; if Aussies don’t accept them, it’s wicked Aussie racists’ fault.

    There is plenty to integrate into – the Australian version of democracy for example

    In theory, perhaps. In reality, immigrants import corrupt third-world practices. “Aussie democracy” won’t outlive the Australian people.

    Then again, democracy has taken a tumble among Australians, too. Dave Bath cited some figures in a recent post about the severe decline in party membership — exactly the sort of decline that the theory of diversity-induced loss of social cohesion would predict. I wonder how many Aussies today can even name their State opposition leader.

    , learning the rules of rugby league, traffic laws, knowing what a lamington is, that thongs are worn on the feet, pissed means drunk not angry,

    I’m pretty sure Mam-doo Habib knows what a lamington is. He the kind of guy you might want to invite around for tea and scones, you reckon, you know, he being so integrated and all that? Or maybe you’ll consider moving into a suburb packed with rugby league-loving Samoans? No? Why not?

    and nervousness around yobbos wearing flags, which is something a white Aussie like me has in common with people of migrant appearance these days.

    The saddest thing about that is they’re virtually the only Aussies going through life with their eyes open. I can’t say I agree with their methods, but they’ve surely got a point. Some “democracy” if they can’t get a word in without being dismissed as loony “racists”.

    I don’t see how history counts as voodoo sociology.

    No, but the claim, proffered, as it is, with such scanty evidence, that mass movements of people always lead to positive outcomes certainly is.

    Wherever people engaging in trade have come under the protection of a centralised state, centres of trade have expanded, wealth has increased, innovation has grown and people have enjoyed benefits.

    This says nothing at all about immigration, but taken as it reads it sounds like a defense of imperialism to me.

    Maybe I wasn’t clear about change. We seemed to be talking about change in the rate and sources of immigration, so I’m not sure what that has to do with Tibet.

    You talked about the ability to adapt to “any” change at all; I just took you at your word.

    Unless we’re talking about sovereignty, in which case I’d argue Australian sovereignty is not under threat by either migrants or a neighbouring state.

    I disagree completely. The composition of the Australian population is undergoing a radical transformation which, simply put, amounts to a loss of sovereignty: the effect of it is little different than had foreign armies invaded, brought their people, robbed, beaten, raped and spat upon yours, deconstructed your history and culture and replaced it with their own. The final indignity will be to simply make it all official.

    It’s unclear whether you’re suggesting globalisation or immigration could be stopped and reversed tomorrow, but either way, neither can be stopped or reversed.

    They’re both a result of government policy. Government policy can easily reverse them. To pretend they “can’t” be reversed is to say you don’t want them to be reversed. But why not?

    We cannot pull out of our trade agreements or cut through the infrastructure of global communications.

    Why not?

    Just maintaining our current level of population requires immigration.

    It’s a question of who that population consists of, not how many people it consists of. Maintaining current levels of population isn’t an important policy objective in itself.

    Benefits that come with increased trade and international ties include wealth, access to the products of research done elsewhere such as in medicine, technology. scientific and industrial developments. For a nation with poor soils, little water and drought, imported food can be handy.

    I never breathed a word about “trade” or “international ties.” I want to know what benefits — real, concrete benefits — come from replacing the population of Australia (or any country, like my ancestral home, for example) with Asians, Africans and Indians etc.

    Benefits that come with increased exposure to other people and their ideas? Democracy for one.

    What benefits accrue to the host population, Lyn, not to immigrants. Australians didn’t learn democracy from immigrants.

    The Sydney Opera House, knowledge of other peoples needed to successfully engage in international dimplomacy, life beyond meat and potatoes.

    Japan, North Korea, China, they don’t seem to have much trouble engaging in international diplomacy despite their distinct lack of “diversity.”

    You’re clutching at straws, Lyn. Sydney Opera House indeed.

    It’s quite clear that, beyond a few superficial delights, nothing good comes out of diversity, and certainly not mass diversity. The only reason to pretend otherwise is this overwhelming fear or dislike of “racism” you seem to have. That’s really all this is about, isn’t it? It certainly seems to be about no more than that with Dave Bath. He was never going to provide any point-by-point rebuttal that concluded in anything other than that alleged Gareth Evans statement. It seems to be just as I said: a people deeply in hate with themselves, intent on expiating the sins of their fathers by destroying themselves.

  2. blocked said

    Dave,

    I’ve tried in vain to post a reply to the comment by “Lyn”. Have you blocked me? Was that all it took?

  3. Dave Bath said

    Nope. No blocking action from this end.

  4. THR said

    There’s so much nonsense in silver’s comment, it’s hard to know where to begin.

    Firstly, Australia has always had ‘diversity’. It was there from the begin, and not invented by Whitlam or something. Aborigines were only conceptualised as a ‘people’ by colonisation – they in fact consisted of a number of linguistically distinct tribes and clans.

    Since colonisation, issues of ‘integration’ and what-not have always been a problem for some. This began with bigotry against Irish Catholic settlers, for instance, and continued well into the 20th century with racism directed at Southern Europeans. Whilst the object of bigotry has continually changed (it was Asians as recently as the Hanson era, now it seems to be ‘Lebs’ and Muslims generally) the bigotry itself has not.

    In reality, immigrants import corrupt third-world practices.

    Like what? I don’t see Somalian refugees, who have escaped the warlords of their own country, trying to implement the same systems here. I don’t see the many thousands of Vietnamese immigrants trying to turn Australia into a socialist republic.

    Japan, North Korea, China, they don’t seem to have much trouble engaging in international diplomacy despite their distinct lack of “diversity.”

    North Korea isn’t exactly the poster boy for ‘international diplomacy’. And China has an enormous amount of ‘diversity’. There are dozens of ethnic and linguistic groups across the country.

    The only reason to pretend otherwise is this overwhelming fear or dislike of “racism” you seem to have. That’s really all this is about, isn’t it? It certainly seems to be about no more than that with Dave Bath. He was never going to provide any point-by-point rebuttal that concluded in anything other than that alleged Gareth Evans statement. It seems to be just as I said: a people deeply in hate with themselves, intent on expiating the sins of their fathers by destroying themselves.

    We have every reason to resist racism, and it has nothing to do with ‘self-hatred’. Anyone who has learnt the lessons of the last century can see the bitter harvest that racism brings. Nazi Germany, the KKK, Japan’s atrocities across the Pacific – do you seriously think these phenomena have nothing to do with racism?

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